'Nasa hacker' McKinnon wins right to Lords hearing

Nick said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

Remind me again why the UK expelled 4 russian diplomats? Wasn't it something to do with Russia refusing to extradite a chap (admittedly accused of murder, not hacking) and instead offering to try him on Russian soil?

This suggestion, naturally, is unacceptable to the UK so the UK requires that Russia changes its constitution "or face the consequences".

Rich said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

The offense was commited on British soil in both cases - if you define location as where the person concerned was physically present.

Ade said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

Nick - slap me if I'm wrong, but this is the position of Gary McKinnon's lawyers, not the UK government. The UK government loves kissing American arse, so would naturally send him over as soon as darling George asks. However, the government has no control over what the courts decide, so they can't affect the decision.

Andy said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

@Nick

Except that Mr Lugovoy’s alleged crimes took place on British soil. That is a big difference. Most people accept the laws of countries they are currently in. What is going on with Gary McKinnon is that all of a sudden we find we are subject to the laws of a country we may well have never visited. More importantly we have had no say in electing its government and influencing what we consider to be reasonable tarrifs for crimes committed.

A said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

Aside from which, *our* courts are better than Russian ones ;)

Andy said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

@Nick

Except that Mr Lugovoy’s alleged crimes took place on British soil. That is a big difference. Most people accept the laws of countries they are currently in. What is going on with Gary McKinnon is that all of a sudden we find we are subject to the laws of a country we may well have never visited. More importantly we have had no say in electing its government and influencing what we consider to be reasonable tarrifs for crimes committed.

4Blades said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

For those ignorant of the law in the U.S., jurisdiction for offenses can be held by any location through which the crime passes. A person who makes a threatening phone call can be tried in the state he made the call from, as well as the state he placed the call to.

mack said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

"For those ignorant of the law in the U.S" Yes but he was not in the US.

Herenow said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

Cracker not hacker

mack said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

True Herenow can't believe I missed that, I normally jump on people for that mis use or words.

John said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

Hacking: Cracking/breaking computer security systems to gain acces to restricted networks. McKinnon acessed computers on a network/networks that had NO PASSWORDS SET. Where is the 'Hack'. Where was the security? Leave your door open when you go to bed do you?

Mark said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

"Leave your door open when you go to bed do you?"

See your point, but my garden doesnt have a fence around it, I don't expect people to camp on it.

Ben said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

IF a US citations cracked MI6 and caused your government harm, no one in England would demand that the US try him in the US under US law. The crime was committed against the a sovereign government. Either the UK government takes on the responsibility for those crimes or the person responsible be held accountable to the government of their offense. And yes I know there's a big row in the UK about US foreign policy. This was not a crime committed in the US by a citation of the US how fled to the UK.

Now bring it on!

Steve said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

Fair comment, but your garden doesn't have billions of dollars worth of risk associated with it (Well, I haven't seen your garden, but I assume you're low on nukes and big on Fuschias).

An IT administrator has a "duty of care" to protect publicly connected systems. Otherwise, how do you seperate accessing a public internet page from accessing a private intranet page?

Ben said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

IF a US citations cracked MI6 and caused your government harm, no one in England would demand that the US try him in the US under US law. The crime was committed against the a sovereign government. Either the UK government takes on the responsibility for those crimes or the person responsible be held accountable to the government of their offense. And yes I know there's a big row in the UK about US foreign policy. This was not a crime committed in the US by a citation of the US how fled to the UK.

Now bring it on!

Stiggle said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

But we in the UK would expect MI6 to have better security and not allow people to crack their systems.

The US has not shown what "harm" the cracking did - apart from showing that even after 9/11 their IT security was totally poor to be ineffective. Which is what this is about. The US trying to save face about someone breaking into a whole host of systems at at time that they were supposed to be secure and vigilent against terrorist threats.

Ben said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

IF a US citations cracked MI6 and caused your government harm, no one in England would demand that the US try him in the US under US law. The crime was committed against the a sovereign government. Either the UK government takes on the responsibility for those crimes or the person responsible be held accountable to the government of their offense. And yes I know there's a big row in the UK about US foreign policy. This was not a crime committed in the US by a citation of the US how fled to the UK.

Now bring it on!

Ben said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

sorry for the reposts.

Nub said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

Doesn't US govt. trust the UK courts or something?

just me said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

I believe the US extradited a man from New Zealand or Australia a while back for almost the same thing

Will said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

Probably a mix of things;
- Republican govt trying to be strong vs 'evil' and flailing around
- US trying to save face
- Republican govt going for re-election without a good margin in the polls
- generally aggressive US foreign policy at the moment
- if no great effort made in the cracking, and no real harm done, most reasonable courts would impose a lighter sentence than Republican govt wants handed down. So they extradite him to the US so G W Bush's tame Supreme Court can apply the maximum possible penalty.

QbanTec said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

This is a public embarassment. There was no password set. If you have no fence around your garden don't expect me not to come by and look at your flowers. There is no harm in that as long as I don't start picking your flowers. Making a mistake like that in an environment like that is neglegence on the part of the Admin. We should be happy that he stumbled on to this gaping security hole before China did. This is a pathetic miscaraige of justice, carried out by politicians who have absolutely no clue about the technology behind the crime that was supposedly committed. How much monetary damage did he do again? How much of that expense was for them to go in and put a password on the accounts? By that same logic, if you look at my flowers, you might end up buying me a fence.

WingNut said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

The systems he hacked into are where? American soil?
The first upstream hop, probably a switch/router, is where? American soil. The next upstream hop, probably a firewall, is where? American soil.
The next at least 5-10 network hops are where? American soil.
And he is saying his crime was committed in London?

This would be like standing 500 yds inside Canada or Mexico with a 30:06, full metal jacket and a 50X scope picking off American citizens and saying "but I committed the crime in another country".

I hope this waste of oxygen gets the electric chair.

Mick said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

If he is extradited it's the last he'll ever see of the UK.

I'm sure the money being mentioned is being exaggerated by 475,000 times. Kinda like the Record industry saying each time a person downloads a song it costs them $1000 per song.

Does anyone outside the US trust their legal system? Yeah he should pay a fine and say he won't do it again.

An IT guy hacked into the Pentagon? Isn't that some kind of security organisation that you would assume to be hack proof.

The should be sending their own IT people to prison for such lax security.

Joe said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

The US should take this as a lesson (implement better security as well as change policies on federally-owned networks), but instead it has shown little dignity. I agree with the comment that you don't leave your door open, inviting criminal elements. However, although I'm not familiar with McKinnon's alleged "crimes," he could probably base part of his defense on the Randall Schwartz decision in which the appeals court reversed the earlier outcome. Schwartz had done things like run the crack program against password files. If McKinnon only accessed networks/nodes that weren't even password protected, the owners of those assets have nobody to blame but themselves. Come on, people -- especially right after 9/11...
You'd think people/companies/GOVERNMENTS would have implemented stricter security policies immediately.

@QbanTec said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

Thanks!

Sandman said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

If my garden did have billions of dollars in risky information i think I would exhaust myself in re-affirming it's security.

Troy M said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

This case is MUCH more about what he FOUND, rather in the hacking crime. Some highly classified material about UFO's, ET's and a secret US space program were revealed by McKinnon.

This is why the US is being so aggressive with this chap.

Kernl said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

@ WingNut

Well, lets say an american nuke was launched @ China, it passed thru thousands of countries, would that mean the person should be tried at those countries?, if he was at the UK when he hacked, well, thats where he was, don't confuse virtual with reality.

TrueHacker said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

He is a hacker, and there is no doubt based on the evidence gathered by UK and US law enforcement who did what to whom... he did it and should stand the consequences. Further, since he attacked US government systems he should stand on trial in the US for his actions. The US wouldn't give second thought to extriditing a US citizen to the UK under similar/identical circumstances (albeit that's less true with other states and extradition when the US is involved). And as far as I am concerned, the guy should be buried under the jail for life without parole and budied up with bubba the horse rapist for the duration of his stay.

Ninja of the Vale said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

They should take him away

Molon Labe said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

Yup, that's about how I feel too.

t35t0r said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

mckinnon is no hacker. he simply trespassed onto US government computers because the door was left open (blank admin passwords). Upon logging in he found other trespassers mostly from east european countries and china. The US govt. should be ashamed of its IT security.

Vlad the Impala said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

What the hell's next, people getting extradited to Saudi for internet viewing of naked women? Maybe you even necked a few beers as well you filthy criminal? Hey it's illegal under their law ya knoaz.

teknosapien said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

how can you call it hacking when access was freely granted. If the systems were locked down, encrypted and access was gained then hacking/cracking would apply, they were not. I am also wondering if there was any disclaimer/warning statement on the system accessed. Knowing my Government and the current administration probably not

MoJo said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

McKinnon just proved how incompetent the US Government and it's employees really are. In most governments it would be tough as hell for even an employee to ask IT to get administrative access to a workstation. They turn most computers into $1000 typewriters.

What they did was buy a Ferrari and then went and parked it in Compton or the Bronx, left the keys in the ignition and didn't lock the doors. What do you think is gonna happen to the car? He didn't hack anything if there was no password. If that want someone to blame, I suggest they turn around and point the finger at the man in charge of IT security. It's his/her fault for buying so stupid (or naive) to put the password as blank.

Let's hope that he gets charged with "trespassing" and not "murder".

MoJo said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

Bleh, bad spelling, too early.

dvd said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

It takes a theif to catch a theif, America should employ him as top man IT security. Obviously a better choice than their existing plonka!

Ryan said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

$475,000 of damage?? Did he blow them up??

Sorry but he was on British soil when he commited the "attack" so he should be tried here..

Maybe i should get reported to china for looking at "dissident" pages on the internet from the UK after all the routers were BUILT in china!!!

Another case of American being full of itself..

They should sack their IT admins and hire this guy simple as.

If you leave the front door open to the world with a pile of cash sitting there it WILL go missing unless you guard it..

@WingNut

Actually are you an idiot??

hmm let me see, accessing an unlocked computer or shoot someone..
which would be more serious??? hmm i wonder
can we compare them in an analogy?? NO

Sherm said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

Personally (and its just an opinion from a former officer of 20 years) Several of you have good arguments, and many are right even though they are opposite (this happens at collisions allot from different perspectives). But take in consideration the fact he did break into US electronically. For this he could be extradited. But for US and UK Relations I personally don't see a problem with the UK prosecuting him for several reasons. Damage to foreign relations, Electronic trespass, Looking down someone else's pants (metaphorically speaking)

Sherm

Sisk said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

As an American I don't trust our current government any further than I can throw it. Given our choices for our next president that's not likely to change in the next 5-9 years. As for our legal system...well it's pretty well screwed up. Where else would consider life imprisonment for downloading a song but let you off with a few months jail time for battery? No, keep his ass in the UK where he's got half a chance for a fair trial. Do NOT let him be extradited unless you want to see him railroaded into a sentence far worse than what his crime (which, by the way, is more about embarrassing the US government than any real damage he did) deserves.

John said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

As a network admin myself, I believe there are a few steps of missed logic here.

Here are a few of the clown facts:

1. passwords are handy for keeping intruders, OUT... or something like that

2. if your stupid ass gets hacked... or in this case some dude wandered through the CIA/pentagon high security shack screen door, you would feel embarrassed too.

3. Because the security system sucks, and they leaked info, rather than being straight up about their stupidity, they'd rather lie and say the guy "hacked" them. (Dumbass... that's like setting up your WRT54g router with default settings. Jesus I could be driving by and accidentally "HACK" their systems to defcon 5 by their standards. They're blowing smoke up everyone's ass when really what they're concerned with is how much info "leaked" and they want a cover-up.)

John said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

4. the term "Nasa Hacker" is lightly thrown around here. There was no psychological trickery to gain access. There was no reverse engineering. I even doubt he tried to erase anything and even if he did... maybe all he actually had access to was pointless data.

5. To be negligent or stupid leaving the network exposed is one thing. To be stupid and not even have server authentication for file security is MONUMENTALLY retarded. Yes, that's right folks... let's BIND computers to a domain at least. This isn't windows 98.

Jared (Network Admin) said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

It's sad that this individual was able to access a system with no password. But honestly how many unnseccessful attacks does the US get a day on its IT infrastructure? There are over 100,000 systems to target. With the amount of attacks and amount of systems why are you so surprised. (Not that that is ok or what we want.)

You talk about your gardens, well those are for display and the enjoyment of you and the public to see. Almost like a website is. This is a system, this is like going up to your front door and jiggleing the door nob. There is a huge difference. Your door is the private entrance to your house and without say you should expect that no one tries to access or enter it. People mention walking around and looking at flowers in a garden, we'll this is walking around and looking at possesions in my house. Big Difference!

Sisk said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

As an American I don't trust our current government any further than I can throw it. Given our choices for our next president that's not likely to change in the next 5-9 years. As for our legal system...well it's pretty well screwed up. Where else would consider life imprisonment for downloading a song but let you off with a few months jail time for battery? No, keep his ass in the UK where he's got half a chance for a fair trial. Do NOT let him be extradited unless you want to see him railroaded into a sentence far worse than what his crime (which, by the way, is more about embarrassing the US government than any real damage he did) deserves.

C Sense said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

@TrueHacker

"The US wouldn't give second thought to extriditing a US citizen to the UK under similar/identical circumstances "

Quite the reverse I'm afraid. The US still has not ratified the latest extraditon agreement between the US and the UK - DESPITE already using it to extradite UK citizens to the US.

Maybe you could read up about it here: news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5175058.stm

John said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

4. the term "Nasa Hacker" is lightly thrown around here. There was no psychological trickery to gain access. There was no reverse engineering. I even doubt he tried to erase anything and even if he did... maybe all he actually had access to was pointless data.

5. To be negligent or stupid leaving the network exposed is one thing. To be stupid and not even have server authentication for file security is MONUMENTALLY retarded. Yes, that's right folks... let's BIND computers to a domain at least. This isn't windows 98.

Rich said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

Wow, there are a lot of stupid people on here. The crime was committed in *both* locations. The British government has decided not to try him there in lieu of extradition. However, if they were to try him in Britain, it would not in any way reduce his crime in the US, and he would still be extradited. And for all you idiots who try to blame the US for this, I hope you get shot and the criminal is released because you weren't wearing full body armor. Fucking morons.

dword said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

According to the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act accessing a system to which you do not have express permission to connect to is in fact a crime regardless of the security measures on that system. The dude broke the law plain and simple and the UK government are being decent folks about letting us put him on trial for what he did. As for claims that the damages are trumped up find the average pay for a government IT worker, then pick a ballpark figure for how long it would take to verify and restore those systems to a status ready to be put back into production, then see how close it comes to the damages claimed, probably a lot closer than sympathizers with McKinnon would like

Mikey said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

The $470,000 in damage comes from the cost of investigating what he did while he was in thoses systems, fixing anything that he broke deleted/etc while he was in the system, and the plugging up the holes that he used to gain access. Not to mention the money spent to try and track him down and prosecute him for the break in. What part of this did the US Government cause?

Smokepaw said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

Hey! I am actually one of the System Admins who was harmed.
We had to scrub and reinstall a server with a particularly ugly document management system on it. It cost us both time and money that we could have better used to do that "research" thing that NASA does. And don't give me that crap about the systems should have been better secured. If someone climbs through your window, reads your mail and paws through your wife's knickers it is a crime. "Solo" thought he was a cool frood until he got caught and now he feels he should not pay the price. He must be a Republican, maybe Bush will pardon him.

Smokepaw said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

Hey! I am actually one of the System Admins who was harmed.
We had to scrub and reinstall a server with a particularly ugly document management system on it. It cost us both time and money that we could have better used to do that "research" thing that NASA does. And don't give me that crap about the systems should have been better secured. If someone climbs through your window, reads your mail and paws through your wife's knickers it is a crime. "Solo" thought he was a cool frood until he got caught and now he feels he should not pay the price. He must be a Republican, maybe Bush will pardon him.

Crapthrower said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

It seems odd to me how so many posters think its the agencies fault for not having enough security. That'd be like leaving your car unlocked and someone getting in and you blame the person who owned the car cus they didnt lock it. IMO you should look at the person who got into the car and say, "well he had the free will not to do this act, he chose to do it, he's at fault" This cracker had the option to go the other way when he noticed it didnt have much security, this is government property he knew crap was coming when he did this. He's at fault even tho its his hobby to crack systems. He's like a person who steals for the fun of it, they are still at fault for their actions and are responsible for whatever damaged they caused. Also It seems the norm to try the criminal in the judicial system that the victim was and where the crime was commited.

evilrob said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

Firstly. We can try to deny any hacking took place. True, he didn't need to run a brute force cracker to get in. Point is, he still navigated his way into a private network. To borrow the garden parallel already used, just because the gate to my bloody garden is standing open, it's not a legal invitation for you to walk in and sift through my garbage pails and flower beds. In that sense, McKinnon was in the wrong. I think the entire extradition bit is a bit silly, and a waste of my tax dollars to bring some nit across the ocean to sit in a jail and be fed on a dole queue of sorts.

evilrob said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

(Part 2)
The pricing of IT related crimes is always blown out of proportion somewhat. So I hacked into an architecture firm's data server and looked at a .pdf file and then left. Does that mean the house built with those plans will fall to the ground, or that the data on the server is now ruined and will require hundreds of man hours to repair? No. Not at all. That's why any responsible IT department has their backup strategy in place. If you're concerned that the files were compromised, restore from the previous day's tapes.

As someone who shy'd away from the H/P/A/V scene in the late 90's due to the implementation of enhanced sentencing laws in the US, I'd rather see the Attorney General's office have to show up in robes with a barrister's aid to fight it out in English courts. They kept Mitnick locked up without a trial for 5 years. How long you think we'd keep a foreign national locked up without a trial? ;)

elephant.memory said on Thursday, 02 August 2007

why the world thinks that australia is backwards is beyond me; several years ago, our government extradited several free-lance network security researcher's in an unlawful manner to the US. The situations were the same for both cases - young guys attacking US military systems, neither had ever left aus before, let alone stepped foot in the us. Both were extradited in the blink of an eye, with minimal media coverage.
One spent 5 years in prison there and had issues on his release because he didn't enter the US on a passport with a valid visa, the other is rotting in a high security prison, and will be for many years too come.
god bless america and there global policing - the world is a safer, fairer place for it.

Sven Geier said on Friday, 03 August 2007

If I leave my Ferrari with the door open and the key in the ignition in the Bronx, then it doesn't matter what I "was expecting was going to happen": if someone takes the car, they're still committing theft. If caught, they will still be charged with theft. They intentionally misappropriated something that wasn't theirs. Their sentence with not be any lighter because I left the key in the car, because they still took something that wasn't theirs. Theft. Plain and simple. There's no "grey area" here anywhere.

Captain said on Friday, 03 August 2007

Of course we should NEVER blame the victim. However, I think that crackers/ hackers improve security. When DVDjon broke the DRM, it made the gatekeepers work. This is an evolution that will continue to make computers more secure and less vulnerable, and that is a great byproduct. While I believe this should be labeled computer mischief and a slap on the wrist would be appropriate- a non-IT specialist wouldn't even be able to understand why. The kid was having "fun." The comments that he should be punished severely are ignorant.

I hope that NASA doesn't start sueing like the RIAA to cover their own ignorance. Using the courts to "prevent" security breaches is the height of irresponsibility. Fire the IT team, don't pay them hundreds of thousands of dollars to fix their own incompetence.

Strat said on Friday, 03 August 2007

I think the situation is more akin to strolling through a park, minding your own business, when suddenly, you're confronted with a tactical assault team. "What the!!..what did I do!?!?" The officer in charge says, "See that patch of grass right there?" You respond, "yes, it's just like all the other patches of grass I've been walking across in the parl all afternoon!" He responds: "No it isn't! That's a Federal High-Security Zone, and you just willingly violated it! You're going to jail for 30 years, you miscreant!" You incredulously respond: "That's ridiculous! There's no signs, no warnings, nothing at all to distinguish it at all from all these other patches of grass that are perfectly OK to cross in this public park!" He responds: "That doesn't matter! You willingly violated it, and the law is the law! Off to federal prison with you, you terrorist!"

Strat said on Friday, 03 August 2007

To finish my point: If I type some random URL into a browser, and it pulls up a webpage with no warnings, passwords required, or even a "Authorized Personnel Only!" notice, and it happens to be some restricted confidential government website, I guess McKinnon would gain a cellmate.

Darn character-limit!

Bert said on Friday, 03 August 2007

Clearly 'Red' Ken is behind all this. WHY? Well, as the US doing deals with the EU to get around existing TREATY matters ... wouldn't it be something of a UK/US CLOD 'war' (yes, CLOD) developed out of it? Diplomats expelled, embassies raided by the SAS and closed, bases shut down - so the CONGESTION TAX DODGING Grosvenor Sq. US embassy becomes a 5 star hotel - and everyone lives happily-ever-after with Capita collecting the CONgestion Charge for a BIG FAT VAT TAX CREDIT (just like the TVLicense scam). The more you look, the more you see a deliberate set-up. McKinnon should be thanked for exposing gross incompetence, then hired to sort out the blatant messes created by so-called I.T. ex-spurts.

Bert said on Friday, 03 August 2007

BTW: The Russian ‘spy’ accused of the most stupid 'hit' ever; that left a trail of radioactive debris across town, the skies and infected himself; tried and convicted in the media by a series of press releases by wanted oligarch fugitives from Russia beggars belief.

Yes. The handmaiden of arrogance IS gross stupidity - followed by disaster. Every time. What baffles me is why they insist on crowing / whining about it ... so loudly and for so long. Ah, I see, the Ministry of Silly Walks is in charge.

The Garret said on Friday, 03 August 2007

For the USA armchair lawyers... Try researching the US federal legal definitions for the terms "entrapment" and "attractive nuisance". Then, ask yourself the question, "What would happen if the world came to believe...rightly or wrongly...that I had photos of real space aliens recorded upon my server at work?" Having done the research, and having asked yourself the question, please explain why multiple admins responsible for such a server would choose NOT apply some level of anti-snooping protection.

ZeroznOnez said on Friday, 03 August 2007

All you freakin idiot's that think hacking is bad, should be shot on sight! the internet is nothing more than a information median, so governments and politicians can sit around smoking there big fat cigars, and talk about how they can control one more thing. The US is hell bent on keeping things secret, it's what this country was founded on Lies and Secrecy. Way to go Mckinnon, Keep up the good work. Btw Check on Woodlawn;)

Bert said on Friday, 03 August 2007

For what it's worth: Every flippin' public servant parasite: politician, cop, judge, military jerk, city/council workers - from dogcatchers and postmen to Prime Ministers and Presidents think it's 100% OK to spy on the us while they are somehow above the law - then they all scream bloody murder when the people snoop back. One law for them and another for us is, by definition, anarchy at the top; that actually makes the philosophy of anarchism (meaning all governments and organisations are inherently evil) start to look rather sensible and attractive. "We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office." --Aesop

ZeroznOnez said on Friday, 03 August 2007

Very well Spoken My Friend! So much for the Constitution, its being manipulated everyday. Hell soon we won't have any rights.

Bert said on Friday, 03 August 2007

For what it's worth: Every flippin' public servant parasite: politician, cop, judge, military jerk, city/council workers - from dogcatchers and postmen to Prime Ministers and Presidents think it's 100% OK to spy on the us while they are somehow above the law - then they all scream bloody murder when the people snoop back. One law for them and another for us is, by definition, anarchy at the top; that actually makes the philosophy of anarchism (meaning all governments and organisations are inherently evil) start to look rather sensible and attractive. "We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office." --Aesop

Heinrich J Ellerbeck said on Saturday, 04 August 2007

The USA has a need to spread its laws to all corners of the world. If a crime was commited out side the USA wether it was against the USA or just a crime in that country.The USA has no juristiction outside of its borders.The sooner our legal system learns to follow the US Constitution the better. If I as a US Citizen rob a branch of Bank of America in Germany. Only the German legal system has juristiction.The US is trying to push its way in to other countries affairs. They do not respect the sovern rights of other nations.I love the USA but iam tierd of our governtment sticking its nose in other countries business.

Please forgive any misspelling english is my second laguage,i was born German.

Johny Redondo said on Saturday, 04 August 2007

If I was the judge I would sentence McKinnon to 10 years of work at NASA with a pay of $300.000per year + plus free food. We could use him to clean the mess NASA at the cape usually hides under the sand. Jeeee a guy like this could be utilized to find enemy terrorists, or child predators. Why waste his skill with some bull-crap sentence.
Here in US child-molesters run free everywhere destroying kids, yet they don't get lock-up for life.

Lisa - NH Forum said on Saturday, 04 August 2007

story from hacker can be found at
www.coasttocoastam.com

Coast is a wierd UFO-Ghost etc show created by Master Art Bell. Wanna-be Host George Noory runs the sad show now since Art retired. The Show sucks since EGO maniac bafoon host GN, thinks that millions of people hear him every night.
Maybe people from Pakistan and Lebanon!

Maybe you could sentence McKinnon to listen to George Noory every-night until December 2012 and also to read his awful book, " worker in the light". That would be a real punishment for the hacker!

Observor said on Saturday, 04 August 2007

Lots of vitrol, emotions engaged, and lots of really good points. What has come into sharp contrast in reading the arguments is how emerging technology may be redefining life risks. If a US bloke mails an undectable mail bomb to a UK citizen and kills him, though the bomber himself was never in the UK, should that be actionable in the UK by UK authorities? If a UK party emails a picture of a naked female and posts it on a servor or computer in Saudi Arabia, should that be actionable in Saudi Arabia by Saudi authorities? Interesting questions.
It used to be you committed a crime IN a country FROM that country,i.e, you had to be there to do it. Modern technology has allowed for the separation of IN and FROM and international law hasn't caught up yet. I suspect that until it does, Murpy's law applies.

Da Bouncer said on Saturday, 04 August 2007

Firing squad

Michelle/NC USA said on Saturday, 04 August 2007

Hey, I would think the govt. here should not only give this guy a reward for cracking the system, but give him a job to learn how he did it and prevent it from happening again. But those in the govt. here don't act human... I feel sorry for this guy.

X-15 said on Saturday, 04 August 2007

I think most of you are missing the point, as he was looking for "UFO" related material and claims to have found something..I think this more than anything is why they want to lock him away forever

smudge3legs said on Saturday, 04 August 2007

Troy M hit it right on the head !!!!!!! It is all about what info was found and not about what was done!

Michelle/NC USA said on Saturday, 04 August 2007

Hey, I would think the govt. here should not only give this guy a reward for cracking the system, but give him a job to learn how he did it and prevent it from happening again. But those in the govt. here don't act human... I feel sorry for this guy.

Wild Bill said on Saturday, 04 August 2007

This crime occurred on U.S. soil, not the U.K., therefore he should be extradited. The damage he alone inflicted and the location of the crime was in the U.S. The fact that he was sitting in the U.K. is irrelevant in this age. His intent, and actions, were to assault and violate systems in the U.S., which he did. Comply now with extradition and jail him for 4 or 5 years. These acts can no longer be viewed as cute hacking games and should be treated as the crimes they are.

Michelle/NC USA said on Saturday, 04 August 2007

Hey, I would think the govt. here should not only give this guy a reward for cracking the system, but give him a job to learn how he did it and prevent it from happening again. But those in the govt. here don't act human... I feel sorry for this guy.

Ratkiller said on Saturday, 04 August 2007

Keep him in the UK. If you send him here it would be kinder just to shoot him.

Nor Ttoille said on Saturday, 04 August 2007

Bull did you see what they did to our border guards dont trust any
of the Gov to do the right thing

Uncle Clark said on Saturday, 04 August 2007

Exactly.
This is all about UFO's. MacKinnon's a modern day Prometheus and the Gods--US and UK alike--don't like having their fire stolen.
He'll have an untimely "accident" soon, you'll see. A lot of bigwigs with a LOT to lose are getting VERY worried now with this House of Lords business.
Don't tell 'em I told ye.

Tony-St.Louis MO said on Saturday, 04 August 2007

MacKinnon is in prison because he is the real John Titor.
They got him (spooks) before jumping back to 2036. He said in his forum long ago that he had ties to England and was looking for a code from the outside. He also was collecting parts in Great Britain for the h.s.i. machine. He broke into N.A.S.A. to find another code to unlock a missile system that lies in orbit in his future. MacKinnon/Titor was just doing his job. He won't be tried in America and he would be paroled as he predicted back in 1998. Then he would vanish to 2036.

PS: Coasttocoast sucks since G.Noory host the show. Get
Ira Glass to Host Show. At least he doesn't have Illusions of Grandeur like Noory does. He is just an old man with the mentality of a 15 year old!- He sucked while working here in St.Louis. Art was really coasttocoast. No more :(

Titor/MacKinnon will be " FREE "

Eric said on Saturday, 04 August 2007

The MoD has recently changed their public stance on UFOs, and they now admit "they are keeping an open mind about the possibility some UFOs are extraterrestrial in nature". This admission is extremely important, let alone fasicnating. McKinnon is apparently in trouble for discovering that the US government has extensive secret files on UFOs. The British government is now admitting some UFOs are possibly extraterrestrial. Please give me a break. McKinnon just did everyone a huge favor by exposing an outright government coverup. He should be commended, not prosecuted.

Melinda said on Saturday, 04 August 2007

Was/is the h.s.i. machine the military time vehicle that looks like a bubble UFO? McKinnon/Titor works for Army in the future?. Spooks from the past/now can't eliminate him or prosecute him cause he is child/man now. Where is he as a kid now? Florida? Maybe spooks have the kid/him secure now as well. What a paradox!

Jeff Rense best paranormal-ufo show

Sandra Fischer -NYC said on Sunday, 05 August 2007

I feel terrible for this poor guy. It's not like he's a muderer or rapist, or a terrible person. While I do not advoctae hacking into the system of any government, he supossedly found information that the US government has been trying to keep secret from the populous at large. And it isn't just the US government. I feel that all goverments have their cover ups where it concerns extyra terrestials and anything to do with them. What they are really angry about is the breaching of information. I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but it is things like this that make me belive David Icke and Alex Jones.

Area51 said on Sunday, 05 August 2007

I think Mr. McKinnon deserves a big round of applause, if for nothing else exposing the US weakness in IT Security. In addition, I believe the US is not working for the people anymore. They have gotten so greedy and power hungry that they have allowed the Pentagon, Military and Congress to waste all of the taxpayer money on super advanced Military equipment that they will never share with the public and the rest of the money they are putting it in their pockets. This sort of abuse definitely needs to be exposed.

Dave said on Sunday, 05 August 2007

Just some (emotionless) thoughts.
1, Most "hacking laws" i have seen, use terms like 'un-authorized acces'. Forget your notions as to what the term is/should be. It is the unauthorized access that they will get him on.
2, the $475K includes charges to find him and to "double check" their systems, it is a misnomer to say it is for 'damages caused by him', but rather how much he should have to pay 'IN damages'.
3, Extradition treaties are necessary because of such things as these "where was the crime committed". On a location by location basis the places he could be held to account for are (a) where he was physically sitting, and (b) the physical address(es) at which the computers he gained unauthorized access to. By being a party to the treaty the signees are accepting a certain degree of the 'other sides' interpretation ...

Dave said on Sunday, 05 August 2007

... 'other sides' interpretation of the law, where there are differences of opinion to the interpretation you have hearings, as in this case.

4, garden/front door/ferrari analogy doesnt work because those are private properties. the question would come down to was it a warning-free click-through or was (yes, there was) there a logon screen which he went through (whether or not he just clicked okay or ran a brute force on it is irrelevant)
5, lets remember he was a sysadmin, and ultimately he knew right from wrong in terms of access, this wasn't a clueless 94 year old grandmother just clicking on the web.

USA_female said on Sunday, 05 August 2007

Personally I think the USA is so corrupt that anyone who hacks/cracks it's systems has got my applause.
The world should know he exposed ET information, not IT.
Why is that important? Gee, well, does it spell conspiracy?
Gee why should us common people care abou that? Let's get all caught up in the 'legalities' of a corrupt system, one that's hiding UFO information...OOPS, did I say UFOs? Those don't exist right?
Give the guy a medal, all the rest of you are just jealous.

Axello said on Sunday, 05 August 2007

Regarding the arguments in favor of extraditing McKinnon to the US:
There are many crimes in the world which do not exist in the US and vice-versa. If you leave the door to a bank vault open here in Europe, it would probably be regarded 'gross negligence' on your part, and the crime would be mitigated.
For that same reason, the police playing drugs dealer; selling crack (or sex) to people and then busting them would be illegal in most of Europe also.
Having a gun without a permit is illegal in most of the civilised world. Should you be sentenced to prison for having a gun at home in the U.S. while visiting abroad?

Axello said on Sunday, 05 August 2007

About the garden: If I walk on a patch of land without any signs, it could be a public park right? Or a private piece of land. Isn't it the responsibility of the land-owner to warn the clueless hiker, instead of shooting him on site?

When you publish your porn as an American citizen on Chinese servers and people view it in Saudi Arabia, you should be trialed where? The crime was committed with your publications in an other country.

We need to redefine what 'being in a country' means in the virtual world.
IMHO, America has double standards.

road runner said on Monday, 06 August 2007

Axello, most of your examples are apples and oranges. They are NOT the same thing. Does America have double standards? yes. Like Great Britain doesn't. It was a crime commited against the United States and should be tried here. If the role were reversed and it was an crime against Great Britain; I'm positive the government there wouldn't be demanding his extradition.

stoater said on Tuesday, 07 August 2007

basically waht this guy did, is write a piece of code which scanned systems for blank passwords. he didnt just stumble across a login page on a nasa website and try his luck. Overall, I think he's done more good than harm. Who knows how long the security hole would've been open for if he didnt.
the $400,000+ is grossly exaggerated. One option would be to have a 3 judge court made up of 1 american, one neutral and one british. and stage it in somewhere like the Hague. As to what law he should be tried under is a different matter. Perhaps the law of the neutral judge?

stoater said on Tuesday, 07 August 2007

he's also claiming he couldnt get proof of the things that he saw, coz it was a slideshow locked in javascript, that you couldnt print a picture and couldnt save it. Why didnt he just press the "print screen" button to copy to the clipboard? If he was that smart, he would've known to do that. I think the guy is a little out of his depth and needs the security of being tried in GB.

stoater said on Tuesday, 07 August 2007

he's also claiming he couldnt get proof of the things that he saw, coz it was a slideshow locked in javascript, that you couldnt print a picture and couldnt save it. Why didnt he just press the "print screen" button to copy to the clipboard? If he was that smart, he would've known to do that. I think the guy is a little out of his depth and needs the security of being tried in GB.