Novell's Faustian Pact

Bill said on Thursday, 13 November 2008

Pretty harsh comments, sort of the kind one finds on boycottnovell.com. Why not discuss how so few distro's actively sponsor projects (like RedHat and Novell do) and how the proliferation of distro's fragments the community instead of reinforcing it - rebadging an existing distro and adding some specialized package tools or art work doesn't benefit the community at large.

If one wished to talk pariah's or having a detrimental affect on the Linux community why not look at Ubuntu and how it's further defragmented the community even as it's made Linux more popular and it's lack of giving back especially providing resources for kernel development.

If we tear down the 'corporate' distro's that look for profit who will replace their financial and personpower contributions?

Matt K. said on Thursday, 13 November 2008

@Bill: I generally have to agree. What you say is absolutely true.

What I don't like about the MS/Novell deal is that Novell may one year get so huge in Linux marketshare, that it then starts to release BINARY-ONLY proprietary software, which will only run on SUSE and lock out the wider open source communities ability to access the code.

lyle howard seave said on Thursday, 13 November 2008

<<<(ignore friendly noises emanating from some middle managers of the company, and pay attention to what its boss says and does)>>

This quote should be burned into everyone's minds whenever those feel good 'they really like us' stories comes out.

You follow the lead of the gy who signs the paychecks, not some middle management sacrificial lamb.
Ever ask what the assistant to the secretary of the head of human resources at Apple has to say about the company's direction or do you quote Steve Jobs?
And in politics do you ask some pencil pusher at the agriculture department for tehir position on the country's foreign policy?
So why do people in FLOSS keep trying to convince us that Bill Milf and Sam Rajmi are nice people which means that Redmond likes FLOSS now even though Steve and Hector (he's the muscle that implies to you than your business needs "insurance") havent changed their tones.

Steve Stites said on Thursday, 13 November 2008

"As Novell becomes more of a pariah within the open source world, it will find it harder and harder to recruit good coders."

Another facet of the same problem is that the rest of open source can no longer trust Novell coders. Are Novell employees producing code to advance open source or to advance the Microsoft-Novell attack on open source?

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Steve Stites

Live and Let Live said on Thursday, 13 November 2008

I say the heck with all the big name distros and go with Debian - the true GNU/Linux distro. Debian has and always remained and will remain loyal to the open source ideals. My assimilation has always been that if it doesn't run on Debian (testing) - don't use it. Try to convince your boss and if he doesn't agree then just smile and live and let live. I say don't worry about these distro wars. Open Source is a very strong current to swim against. Let the drown in their own blood. For now play dumb but stay true to your ideals.

Jamie said on Thursday, 13 November 2008

@Bill: There is a lot more to the GNU/Linux ecosystem than just the kernel.

The desktop environment is largely ignored by the kernel developers. Google: linux kernel developer quits

Ubuntu focuses on the desktop. That is a huge contribution to the GNU/Linux ecosystem.

Ubuntu has created an easily installable and very user-friendly GNU/Linux destopthat "just works". They have put a lot of effort to create a high-quality distro that is winning a lot of new users over to GNU/Linux. That is a huge contribution to the ecosystem.

I think one of Ubuntu's biggest strengths is its user driven documentation. Try googling for "Ubuntu <problem>" instead of "Linux <problem>". Prior to Ubuntu I'd spend days trying to find a solution - now I can usually have a solution within a few hours. With other distros I'd search for hours before finally asking a question to be answered with "RTFM" or "did you try googling first?" How is that useful? I think that is a huge contribution to the ecos

PJ said on Thursday, 13 November 2008

They are already reduced to hiring people that are interested in one thing. Money. Although RH sees no threat since Novell cannot execute on anything today.

<i>This post is not from the PJ associated with the excellent <a href='http://www.groklaw.net/index.php' target='_blank'>Grocklaw</a> site - Editor</i>

Bill said on Thursday, 13 November 2008

@Jamie - other than a crappier version of Kcontrol for kde4 what has *buntu's done for the ecosystem - heck time vault beta's aren't even available in source code just .deb. I would agree the community is probably the best but that's the community and that's help with their products not with Linux in general - your response agrees with my contention that they're in it for themselves not the non-*buntu's - to me they're a pariah to Debian.

How about a list of app's the've developed for all Linux users and what apps. they sponosor - it's a lot easier and cheaper to take than to give back.

Glyn Moody said on Thursday, 13 November 2008

@Bill: I've always regarded the wide choice of distros as a strength rather than a weakness. Certainly, there's some friendly rivalry between them, but as I wrote, they are all drawing on the same software commons.

And while Ubuntu has (rightly) been criticised for not doing enough for the upstream projects (such as Debian), I think it's done good work in other ways - marketing the GNU/Linux brand, and in trying to address usability issues on the desktop.

As to your point about who will replace the contributions of "corporate" distros, let's not forget that free software is founded on the work of the community, and the thousands of coders who did/do most of the work. If necessary, it could survive without the "corporates", but it probably can't survive if they start enclosing the commons with patents and suchlike.

Tux Gates said on Thursday, 13 November 2008

@Bill, IMO the proliferation of Distros is a strength of Linux, not a weakness. I'm no fan of Ubuntu (Slackware RULES!), but a lot of people find that a comfortable distro, so more power to 'em.

But what Novell is doing is not building Linux, or the community. Their "financial and personpower contributions" as you put it, is a specific choice to build around non-standard, proprietary, patent encumbered technology that can never be safely integrated into any open source project. Glyn hits the nail on the head about their hiring, too. They are replacing the community minded developers (who got fed up and left) with yes-men who will do and say what they're paid to do and say.

Sam said on Thursday, 13 November 2008

So I have had a chance to talk to the guy that signs the paychecks. He's pretty clear that Novell would be doing this with or without a MS partnership. Customers want this. SAP says to run SAP on SUSE Linux. Customers don't change the OS on every server they run their business on all at once overnight. They do like having "one throat to choke" (a frequently used phrase by the guy that writes the paychecks) when it comes to support.

You can take issue with whether traditional forms of business competition make sense in open source but tying this somehow back to MS is reaching. Tying it back to customers and shareholders might be better places to look.

Roy Parker said on Thursday, 13 November 2008

Novell's just trying to make money. Nothing nefarious about that. The interoperability created by their MS partnership is what they think they can sell to customers. This latest gambit is just another way to make money, by poaching customers away from competitors. Again, nothing nefarious about that, just capitalistic competition. Their strategies will either work or they won't -- the marketplace will decide.

Glyn Moody said on Thursday, 13 November 2008

@Sam: thanks for that info. As you say, it's still a moot point whether Novell is really working with the free software community by acting in this way.

And I did say that the move reinforced the *impression* that it was acting in concert with Microsoft. I think that's still the case, whatever Novell's true motivation. In other words, a maladroit move however you look at it....

Sam said on Thursday, 13 November 2008

@Glyn perhaps the thing that makes me wonder a bit is simply that they see the need to do a press release on it.

Just arm the salesforce and partners with the ability to provide this to customers that need it and be done with it.

Motivation and perception share the traits of being hard to understand and hard to predict.

Glyn Moody said on Thursday, 13 November 2008

Good point: it makes the whole thing rather gratuitous....

Jose_X said on Friday, 14 November 2008

Novell's actions are not random. In recent times they haven't been putting their resources (now owed much to Microsoft) generally behind technologies and tactics that fight the biggest obstacle and threat to Linux and FOSS: Redmond. They aren't fighting Redmond or being neutral. Rather they have done the opposite and favored Redmond. Microsoft is not "just another competitor". It really does hurt Linux+FOSS to favor Redmond. Novell's business is to help Microsoft leverage their monopolies more effectively into the FOSS world. One piece for Microsoft; one piece for Novell.

Jose_X said on Friday, 14 November 2008

Microsoft doesn't care if marginal FOSS exists. They just want to make sure no money flows outside their reach. Red Hat continues to make Linux respectable, contributes significant software, creates real momentum to help fight back Microsoft's monopolies and its relentless extensions. If it's not Red Hat it could be someone else, but if the main commercial Linux players favor proprietary (like Microsoft.. like Novell), then that will hurt the viability of free/free Linux over time. It will lag. It will become a hobby for hobbyists. The user community and paid "FOSS" developers will more likely be driven to Windows. Hardware drivers and key applications for Linux will be missing or lag the equivalent for Windows. Even "FOSS" will lag on Linux vs on Windows. Those looking to develop for money or want to use modern/necessary apps and who prefer FOSS will be pressured to use Windows for more and more. Proprietary/mixed will become expected and lead to greater acceptance of patents.

A Linux Commenter said on Friday, 14 November 2008

I think you're reading too much into this program. This is a standard "competitive trade-in program" that I've seen for 20 years (and have actually participated in launching). It's just an attempt to rattle the cages of the competitor's marketing people (in this case, Red Hat).

Given that Red Hat has grown quite nicely in the two years since Oracle announced its Red Hat clone program and the Novell-Microsoft deal, this is trivial by comparison.

someonewhoknows said on Friday, 14 November 2008

my god you're an idiot. your conclusion is totally unfounded.

OSS companies compete against each other every day and try to "steal" customers from each other all the time.

The commercial linux landscape is predatory, Red Hat does this type of stuff all the time but I don't see you whining about them.

get a clue, any movement to Suse is a good (tm) thing, this has nothing to do with M$, except in your delusions.

Rob said on Friday, 14 November 2008

Uh? Sorry Glyn, but this time you really lost. Yep, Novell is wrong in allying with MS because they're lending (desperately needed) credit to their patent FUD on Linux: I'm disgusted that they just seem not to care about how the community feels about this, the same community working on the software they package in SUSE Linux.

Their latest initiative, though, looks like simple *competition* to me. I don't really see how trying to grab customers from a competitor (because that's what RH is to them) can be seen as a vicious move. Unless you are able to show that they really aim to move customers from Linux to Windows one day: that would be a grave betrayal of the community indeed, but man, you got to have proof.

Glyn Moody said on Friday, 14 November 2008

@Rob: I'm saying there's a difference in competing with other distros like Red Hat for *new* business - which grows the ecosystem - and simply trying to poach *existing* GNU/Linux users, not least because there are question marks over some of the code that Novell is producing in terms of its patent deals with Microsoft.

In other words, there is no benefit for the GNU/Linux ecosystem from Novell's actions, and a considerable risk.

Jose_X said on Friday, 14 November 2008

Rob, having Novell take over Red Hat market share helps Microsoft.

See for example this http://boycottnovell.com/2008/10/11/mono-2-beyond-the-hype/#comment-27135 (especially the bottom half and the included links).

There are many ways Novell is helping Microsoft besides with the patent FUD you mentioned, and this would remain so even if they didn't explicitly go after Red Hat aggressively.

They already help Microsoft shore up customers that might otherwise venture from Windows without Microsoft's guiding hand. Novell markets for Microsoft. At every turn they sell the "superiority" of Microsoft software for use as the controlling platform, servers, virtualization hosts, protocols, formats, etc. They are helping to spread the technology where Microsoft has huge amounts invested and is a leader over technology where Linux and open source is the leader. This forces the game unto Microsoft's home court...

Jose_X said on Friday, 14 November 2008

... This gives value to assets where Microsoft has huge amounts invested. This helps Microsoft attract more developers. This helps conceal the detrimental effect to the customer's bottom line, privacy, security, interoperability across vendors, etc, that occurs when Microsoft software and monopolies are given the upper hand in the network or desktop.

Some more ways Novell helps Microsoft each and every day:

Novell helps Microsoft sell that "interop" with proprietary monopolist software is achievable and would be good enough while open standards and open source are not necessary or even that valuable. Put slightly differently, Novell helps Microsoft sell their newest proprietary traps by suggesting that Microsoft's proprietary software can have a second source and that there is legitimate FOSS "interoperable" offerings.

They have deals with Microsoft which likely include significant transfer of code between them...

Jose_X said on Friday, 14 November 2008

... This would include code that allows Microsoft to remain competitive with new FOSS offerings and which Microsoft can leverage into their closed products. This code would partly be developed by volunteers who might think the code would not go proprietary.

In the developer front, Novell does significant work to try and move FOSS developers to develop for platforms that are crucial to Microsoft, platforms which must remain valuable for Microsoft to maintain the interlocking monopolies, the levers, and the sizable revenues.

In light of all of this, how can you say that Novell replacing Red Hat is good or even neutral for the FOSS community? [Red Hat contributes good code, positive marketing, legitimacy, Microsoft-free marketshare, anti-patent help, a good example of a good FOSS business model, etc.]...

Jose_X said on Friday, 14 November 2008

... How could you agree that Novell does these negative things, and then turn around and not obviously conclude that them working to replace Red Hat and to spread their software is not damaging to Linux+FOSS?

Or do you not agree? [With which part specifically?]

Jose_X said on Friday, 14 November 2008

... How could you agree that Novell does these negative things, and then turn around and not obviously conclude that them working to replace Red Hat and to spread their software is not damaging to Linux+FOSS?

Or do you not agree? [With which part specifically?]

HeikoG said on Friday, 14 November 2008

@Glyn: So you are criticizing a commercial Linux distro because it tries to win over customers from other distros? Sounds pretty strange to me. I frankly do not like Novell and their pact with the devil, but blaming a company for trying to win market share by taking it away from competition is really crazy.

Why not think of it this way: It is probably easier for Novell to win a Red Hat customer than to convince a MS customer - the former already knows about the advantages of Linux.

Please stop trying hard to find something bad about Novell, they sooner or later will come up with a *real* reason for being criticized. No doubt about that.

Glyn Moody said on Friday, 14 November 2008

@Heiko: yes, I am, for the reasons I mentioned - that the open source ecosystem is different from the Windows one, say. And I would criticise Red Hat in the same way if it went aggressively after other distros' users.

You give a good reason yourself for this view: Novell is simply feeding off the work of Red Hat, instead of converting Microsoft users, which would help itself *and* the ecosystem. That may be easier, but it's also egotistical, which sits ill with the way that free software works - even on the business side.

Jose_X said on Friday, 14 November 2008

Rob, as for Novell helping Microsoft's patent FUD gain legitimacy, the suggestion here http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2008/11/kicking-beast.html is that some major retailers fear that Microsoft will go after them with "IP" claims if they sell Linux.

A comment below the blog entry does point out that this might be but an excuse, but it's a useful excuse and certainly helps sell Microsoft's Linux, MicroVellLinux, vs. any other Linux brand.

The FUD affects retailers and some (many?) customers to some degree.

Also keep in mind that Novell would be in deep trouble without Microsoft's business deal, though, at this point, they are neck deep in supporting Microsoft technologies anyway. The more you depend on someone, the less leverage you have against them in any sort of "negotiations". If without them, you die, they own you.

Also don't forget Novell's well-established preference and reliance on closed source offerings and closed source based business models.

Jose_X said on Friday, 14 November 2008

Glyn, I support boycotting Novell's products and not Red Hat's; thus, I view Novell gaining share over Red Hat as a real loss to FOSS (as explained a bit in a number of prior posts) but would not feel the same way about Red Hat taking over Novell marketshare.

Novell is doing what its major shareholders want, absent a real plan and a real way forward from Novell's present and past management. If you are attached to Novell (to opensuse, own significant NOVL, or emotionally somehow), it's easy to believe that Novell "got the best of Microsoft," is making a smart move because "Microsoft is a fixture in IT," is secretly working to strengthen Linux, etc, etc, but that is not what Novell's actions say. There are inconsistencies everywhere if you try and believe them. Meanwhile, there is a clear consistent theory that they are simply aiding a major investor beat down FOSS.

This has many interesting bits http://www.theregister.co.uk/1999/07/18/analysis_how_ms_used/ as does boycottnovell.c