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How Can We Save Thunderbird Now Email is Dying?
April 06, 2009
Posted by: Glyn Moody
I like Thunderbird. I've been using it for years, albeit now more as a backup for my Gmail account than as my primary email client. But it's always been the Cinderella of the Mozilla family, rather neglected compared to its more glamorous sister Firefox.
The creation of the Mozilla Messaging subsidiary of the Mozilla Foundation means that efforts are already underway to remedy that. But there's a deeper problem that Thunderbird needs to face, too.
In terms of fixing the short-term problem of increasing Thunderbird's user base, there are number of actions that can be taken. Perhaps the easiest is starting to encourage and promote Thunderbird add-ons. The equivalents for Firefox have turned into one of the most powerful arguments for using it – and for not being seduced by shiny new browser toys like Chromium/Chrome.
I often hear people say that they couldn't live without a particular browser add-on, but I've never heard the equivalent for Thunderbird. That needs to change if Mozilla's email solution is to become as central – and loved – as its browser.
Related to this is that much more must be done with the SpreadThunderbird site, which is effectively moribund. One of the biggest factors that led to Firefox's success was the use of the community of enthusiastic users to drive further uptake, notably through the SpreadFirefox site.
This simply isn't happening with Thunderbird, so it's no wonder that adoption rates are an order of magnitude lower. If open source has taught us anything, it is that the user community is immensely creative and capable of acting as a multiplying factor.
These are relatively simple things to try. But the larger problem facing Thunderbird is more profound, and not so easy to solve. Email is dying. Time and again I come across comments to the effect that people have given up on their email inbox, and simply junked their messages.
Increasingly, people are turning to Twitter, Facebook and LinkedIn as their messaging medium. It's not hard to see why. These are opt-in services: you get to choose who can contact you, unlike email.
This has led to the scourge of spam, which now represents 94% of all email, according to Google's Postini subsidiary. A classic Tragedy of the Commons has resulted, whereby a few selfish individuals exploit and ultimately destroy a resource used by all.
Sadly, it looks like the battle against spam is lost; even though services like Gmail offer extremely efficient filtering in my experience, it's a poor substitute for a messaging service that can assume that you want to see everything that is sent to you, because only people of interest are allowed to contact you.
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Comments received
Conrad Taylor said on Monday, 06 April 2009
I don't have the evidence to contest your assertion that email is dying, but object vehemently to the "poor, uninformed or lazy" label for those who continue to use it.
Twitter, Facebook and other messaging systems simply cannot replace the ability of email to convey a thought-out message of several hundred words. I engage in several email discussion lists, and also in various committees where a lot of business is handled via email, and see no way to replace those functions of email with anything as lightweight, versatile and flexible, with the added benefit of being able to carry attachments.
Adam Nemeth said on Monday, 06 April 2009
Well, the primary question is whether the age of desktop messaging solutions (or, in a broader term: anything internet-based which does not run on web) is over or not.
The second question is what are the primary means and methods of communication for a given audience: is it really friendfeed? I doubt so.
When Thunderbird became Mozilla Messaging Anything, as a member of XMPP Standards Foundation, I certainly encouraged the IM part on FOSDEM: I communicate mostly with IM, that's all.
But also we do communicate by phones (Bluetooth SMS API, anyone?), we do communicate by pictures and files ("Where's that excel Jimmy sent me last week? What are Nelly's latest photos of her baby daughter Tina?), and we also do communicate by links (have I sent you that youtube link I got?)
Maybe the central of communication are the persons (or communities) I communicate with, and not the method of communication - although I wonder if those public activity feeds are really communications someti
Patrick Finch said on Monday, 06 April 2009
(I work for Mozilla). Interesting topic. I would offer that it is early to declare SpreadThunderbird moribund - the site was only launched very recently.
Glyn Moody said on Monday, 06 April 2009
@Conrad: I'm not suggesting email users are "poor, uninformed or lazy" *now*, but that if things continue as they are, everyone else may leave.
And I agree that email is a useful medium; what I am lamenting is that it has been ruined by spammers to the extent that some people are giving up - and more may. Hence my question what the future of messaging should be.
Glyn Moody said on Monday, 06 April 2009
I'm not suggesting that email is somehow old-fashioned, just increasingly ruined - not its fault. I like the idea of a people-centric approach, because that builds on the idea of opt-in, which is the main strength of Facebook, Twitter, etc in this sphere.
Glyn Moody said on Monday, 06 April 2009
@Patrick - don't get me wrong, I'd like SpreadThunderbird to succeed...but nothing's happening there. If you're working on stuff, better perhaps to have waited. At the moment it just looks rather forlorn...
Conrad Taylor said on Monday, 06 April 2009
Glyn, thanks for clarification. We have discussed this in my BCS-KIDMM community and the feeling is (a) email has got to stay (b) but trivia will move to Twitter &c. Graham Oakes adds that forms of instant messaging serve project management discussions well -- provided there is a navigable archive!
Your stats on spam may be true, but run strongly counter to my experience. My Demon email account is very busy, but leaks only a few spams a week, despite having quite a public online presence. And I get zero spam on my Googlemail account. So, for me, email is a comfy experience. What am I doing right?
Your thoughts about the Twitter person-centred model are very relevant, though. Are there email-use models working this way?
Glyn Moody said on Monday, 06 April 2009
@Conrad - I also see few spam messages on my gmail account, but if you look in the spam folder there are hundreds every day. Google is doing a good job, but as spam volumes rise, there may come a point where it doesn't.
And independently of spam, I'm hearing increasing numbers of stories of people that can't keep up with non-spam - messages from people that aren't spammers, but aren't particulary relevant either. We need a way to manage this.
Conrad Taylor said on Monday, 06 April 2009
Glyn, thanks for clarification. We have discussed this in my BCS-KIDMM community and the feeling is (a) email has got to stay (b) but trivia will move to Twitter &c. Graham Oakes adds that forms of instant messaging serve project management discussions well -- provided there is a navigable archive!
Your stats on spam may be true, but run strongly counter to my experience. My Demon email account is very busy, but leaks only a few spams a week, despite having quite a public online presence. And I get zero spam on my Googlemail account. So, for me, email is a comfy experience. What am I doing right?
Your thoughts about the Twitter person-centred model are very relevant, though. Are there email-use models working this way?
Roger Lancefield said on Monday, 06 April 2009
Thunderbird with SpamAssassin are dong almost as well as GMail in terms of protecting me from Spam at the moment. A couple of pieces of junk a day are making it through to my inbox, but certainly nothing service-compromising.
Recently witnessing a member of my family become locked out from her GMail account served as a timely reminder of why it's good to be in charge of one's own inbox(es). After flirting with the idea of handing over my messaging needs to Google a while back, I'm now firmly back in the independence and freedom camp.
I do agree though, it is is indeed tragic that such a wonderful service has been brought so low, in large part by the cynical and selfish scumbags that spew their trash at us day in, day out.
Glyn Moody said on Monday, 06 April 2009
@Roger: the trouble is, it's not just spam: there's the flood of emails from colleagues, acquaintances, friends of friends etc. Email is too easy, and hard to undo. I think lots of people would love to start again - and that's what Facebook and Twitter let them do.
I agree about Google: I use it (partly to understand it), but with deep reservations (and plenty of backups).
David F. Skoll said on Monday, 06 April 2009
Email, for me, is the killer Internet app. I use Thunderbird and love it. I use plugins like External Editor, Mnenhy and a PGP plugin and find them indispensable.
Glyn Moody said on Monday, 06 April 2009
@David: that's great, but I come across more and more people that don't share your enthusiasm. It would therefore be good for Thunderbird to think about what the future may hold for email.
Calendaring said on Monday, 06 April 2009
For business use people will still need something like Thunderbird or MS Outlook.
The reason for the relative failure of thunderbird and other open source e-mail clients, is a misunderstanding of the market from the developers point of view. They seam to think people chose e-mail clinet on the e-mail capabilities, when calendaring often is just as important. This is why buiness goes for Outlook/Exchange and home users go for web based servics.
Glyn Moody said on Monday, 06 April 2009
Yes, I agree: calendaring is a vital element, and more needs to be done in this area.
Twitter? Give me a break said on Monday, 06 April 2009
Twitter as a replacement for e-mail? I don't know anyone could conceive of such a thing. The per message character limit all by itself makes this an impossibility. When I see what passes for conversation on Twitter, I am appalled. It is bad enough that people want to use those stupid abbreviations in text messages, but when they cross over to other written forms of communication, it is just sad, but you are almost forced to use them because the length of messages is restricted so much.
Glyn Moody said on Monday, 06 April 2009
I wasn't suggesting Twitter as a complete replacement for email: I was saying that some are turning to it because of its advantages. Certainly, you can't compress a complex email into a Twitter message, but there are plenty of short emails that would fit easily.
David F. Skoll said on Monday, 06 April 2009
@Glynn: I'm a business user of e-mail. I suspect that you are surveying home and casual users.
In business, e-mail is still essential and is nowhere near "dying". Social networking sites, Twitter, etc. are very poor substitutes for business e-mail.
Sum Yung Gai said on Monday, 06 April 2009
Actually, I get very little spam. Like, maybe, 5 a week on average. No, I don't use Gmail, Ymail, or any other "mail" besides my own. Of course, I run OpenBSD SPAMD, which takes out 99.98% of all spam aimed at me, with no false-positives. :-)
And good lock getting corporations off of email. Not gonna happen 'cause the employees are used to it. Of course, these same corporations are still wedded to MS Exchange Server and MS LookOut.
That said, sure, the more Thunderbird users we have, at the expense of MS LookOut or LookOut Express(lybad), the better. The way I market it is by its excellent Junk Mail filter. Yes, that works; I get conversions happening.
--SYG
Glyn Moody said on Monday, 06 April 2009
@David: I agree that the dynamics for home and business are different, but I'm surprised you don't have any problems with email: don't you have floods of more or less irrelevant emails from colleagues who cc you "just in case"?
Sean said on Monday, 06 April 2009
What EXACTLY does Thunderbird do? How about explaining that in clear, simple terms? Don't use phrases like "enhance your email experience."
Glyn Moody said on Monday, 06 April 2009
@Sean: there's a list of its features here:
http://www.mozillamessaging.com/en-US/thunderbird/features/
is that what you meant?
Joe Kupcha said on Monday, 06 April 2009
I don't understand the comments about getting many irrelevant emails. I have used Thunderbird for many years and have my mail filtered into folders and flagged if its from friends or business acquaintances. Heck I even have rules to tag my outgoing mail (change its color) to make it easier to locate specific types of messages in a folder. I also don't understand the use of webmail. 99% of the time when I check my email it is on my computer. Why do I want to use the web. Heck my Thunderbird client is how I check my Gmail! I should also add that I don't use facebook, myspace, or twitter. I just don't have the time as these seem entirely recreational. I do use google talk for IM and I swear by google calendar. I have my entire office using it for scheduling.
Michael said on Monday, 06 April 2009
Desktop email is not going anywhere. I'm an IT consultant and 99.9% of my clients use Thunderbird or Outlook. I move as many of them as I can, especially the non-business users to Thunderbird. I personally use Thunderbird, Lightning (Calendar) and Enigmail (encryption). I also use the PitchDark theme which closely matches the Shuttle Night Launch theme I use in Firefox. While it's true there aren't as many add-ons for Thunderbird maybe it's because they aren't needed. It's an email client, not a browser, that's the whole point. I use Thunderbird to check 2 Gmail accounts, 6 other pop accounts and a Hotmail account.
I don't hate the Gmail web interface(other than the address book which is horrible), but I do find it confusing compared to Thunderbird. It's also extremely slow at times, to the point of being unusable. I've actually had to switch a number of people back from Gmail to checking Gmail via Thunderbird because they couldn't get used to the Interface or had performance issues.
PJ said on Monday, 06 April 2009
The main stumbling block I've had in rolling out Thunderbird in business environments, is it's lack of synchronisation with Windows mobile devices (and now Crackberry & iphones to contend with).
If PDA synch support for devices improved, that would help.
As regards plug-ins/add-ons lightning calendar is pretty good now.
Michael said on Tuesday, 07 April 2009
Also - The one complaint I used to have about Thunderbird was the Junk mail filtering. It just didn't do that good of job. I recommend installing Spambayes as a service. Since I've done that I reduced my spam to a few per month. I'd like to see Spambayes integrate with Thunderbird as it does with Outlook, which would make a simpler setup. So I guess there is 1 add-on on my wish list.
Pete said on Tuesday, 07 April 2009
I will never stop using email clients. I can not stand the online interfaces with check-boxes and filters etc... Thunderbird needs to up the bar a bit and they will be fine.
Frederik said on Tuesday, 07 April 2009
It's not just about the e-mail itself, it's also the software like thunderbird that needs improvement. I'm still waiting for the new version of thunderbird (3), and I'm still not very satisfied with the improvements over thunderbird 2. Ok, they improved the IMAP support... and OH MY GOD, they announced to cancel the lightning module! Well, guys... if you need any help? Why not using google Calendar, facebook support in mails, better looks, builtin webbrowser (firefox), the extensions like outlook 2007 (reading documents directly), Synch with devices... there are so many things to do with! But I guess they want to please people with a better Firefox, instead of improving thunderbird. That's shame
Ben Lurkin said on Tuesday, 07 April 2009
The reports of email's death are greatly exaggerated. Facebook's recent shenanigans resulted in a significant exodus. I left it behind and my Gmail and Gtalk have never seen more use. Google's spam filters work almost perfectly; never a false negative and rarely a false positive. I use an application as my email client, not a web browser. Maybe I'm a freak.
Frank said on Tuesday, 07 April 2009
Hi there,
I've only used TB as a pop mail client, so allow me to play devil's advocate in 1000 characters or less.
I'm not certain whyyou indicate that there are no shiny alternatives to TB (like chromium to firefox). What would make Kmail (with its KdePim and KOffice integration ) and Evolution (which is fairly spiffy) something other than shiny alternatives? Specifically, what does TB offer (feature-wise) that these two products do not? Performance, quality, UI, or other new and innovative features? It seems to do a well for the purposes that I have used it (pop3), but the alternatives seem pretty shiny to me.
An aside:
Someone once asked me what features IM over IRC. My answer, "The illusion of privacy"
The next question is whether Mozilla's financial and development resources wouldn't be better spent elsewhere? There's still a lot of browser innovation and implementation left to be done.
With 44 characters left to go,
Frank
David F. Skoll said on Tuesday, 07 April 2009
@Glyn: No, I don't have a spam or irrelevan-mail problem. My company develops anti-spam software and it works really well. Also, as the president of the company, I train new employees very early on about e-mail etiquette.
minhaaj ur rehman said on Tuesday, 07 April 2009
Face the inevitable. No threaded conversations, built-in pgp support, and address book sync would get TB down.
Jason Barone said on Tuesday, 07 April 2009
I don't think email is dying, I just think people are opting to communicate over Social Media when it's appropriate. There's no substitute for sending a message that references something or contains some type of data that needs to be stored. I do think spam is a huge problem, but I think email still has a lot of life left in it. I wish more people would adopt Thunderbird. I love it, I think it's much faster and much more customizable.
The addon situation is pretty easy to solve...it doesn't need any. I've only installed 3 addons ever with it: Minimize to Tray, Lightning, and the SugarCRM plugin. It does anything I really need it to.
I think one of the main reasons it hasn't gotten adopted as well as Firefox is because in most cases, the program isn't necessary. Businesses usually install the MS Office suite, which contains Outlook. Why would the average person want to switch from Outlook to Thunderbird, when Thunderbird in *some* cases is a step down from Outlook...
Nishanth Shanmugham said on Tuesday, 07 April 2009
Gmail is one of the best around. Spam filter and free POP and IMAP. Though I prefer the web-interface.
Ryan said on Tuesday, 07 April 2009
I don't agree at all with this. Maybe they have started to reach a point where there isn't any more new users looking for a client like Thunderbird. I use Thunderbird every day for work and I love it. Although for personal use, Gmail works fine since I don't expect a ton of email to come everyday.
Anonymous said on Tuesday, 07 April 2009
Thunderbird 3 is yet to come out, and I'm only sticking to outlook until that release. The advantage of desktop mail is not the mail itself, but the information managing applications behind them such as calendarization (thunderbird without add-ons? it doesn't hold very long without lightning, the thunderbird calendar), to-do lists, meetings, etc.
yes, you can do these things while online with google, and yes, there's the advantage of cloud computing... But let synchronization take care of that. Let thunderbird merge with google as firefox does in so many aspects. Personally, i feel safer having the information i need in my computer ready for easy manipulation and accessibility.
OctaneZ said on Tuesday, 07 April 2009
I am not sure what I would do without Nostalgy:
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/addon/2487
Keyboard centric solutions to saving, and sorting mail
ccoat said on Tuesday, 07 April 2009
I use MAc so I wold want firstly seamless integration to the extent MAC mail is integrated and seamless iphone intrgration - after that more functionality for home business users such as mail merge (T'bird may have that already) I plan to stay with desktop mail so I have my own archive for busienss purposes.
Geoff said on Tuesday, 07 April 2009
I've been fiendishly interested in email clients and the seeming marginalisation of the medium for yonks. As I have no loyalty whatever I go with what works (Opera mail currently - frustratingly not open source). I've come to the following realisations on the topic:
1. As much as I think email is an outmoded format, it isn't; I depend on it every day as my defacto primary business tool. I don't communicate with clients via Facebook - yet.
2. Whatever happens it's got to be dead simple and quick. Twitter is popular because a sentence is about all anyone can be bothered to write (or read) these days.
So, I too think someone needs to fill this gap with an Pidgin-like multi-protocol dashboard. It would be nice if Mozilla pushed something out but I expect an offering might come from the Google labs. If you set up a petition or white board I'll gladly sign/contribute!
Glyn Moody said on Tuesday, 07 April 2009
@Joes: the issue is that many people in companies use email as a kind of safety net: they send copies to everyone so that nobody feels left out. This can lead to email deluges, not so much of spam as of messages that aren't really necessary. It probably depends on the corporate environment.
Glyn Moody said on Tuesday, 07 April 2009
@Petee: so what would you like to see?
Glyn Moody said on Tuesday, 07 April 2009
@Michael: I don't say that everyone is giving up on email: for some, like your clients, it's obviously an excellent choice. but I do wonder about many others, especially as more messaging takes place through Facebook etc.
Also, even though TB is "just" email, surely addons could make it better?
Glyn Moody said on Tuesday, 07 April 2009
@Geoff: yes, the multi-protocol dashboard idea is the kind of thing I had in mind, too.
Joe Kupcha said on Tuesday, 07 April 2009
I forgot to mention that one of the really great things about TB is that its very easy to backup and import email. I have 3+ years of email and archived access to the last 10 years of email. This coupled with a decent search is really helpful.
Sqcpro said on Tuesday, 07 April 2009
The web based GMail is my pick for most mail. But I bring 12 accounts in on Thunderbird. It is also my backup for GMail. I've lost too much data on web based clients to fully trust GMail
Nash said on Tuesday, 07 April 2009
I already perceive Thunderbird as outdated. But perhaps you may want to look at Synovel's Spicebird to get a glimpse of where Thunderbird seems to be heading. That said, email is just one of the many things that are converging into the browser - it definitely is not dying , its evolving. Gmail itself has changed the idea of handling email and what one tends to do when one is "in" an email client. There is still nothing out there that will match the ubiquity, ease and information capacity of email.
DanielRie said on Wednesday, 08 April 2009
I think everybody who buy stuff over the Internet, will keep their need for desktop email. You just need that extra backup of your online important files, because you can never rely on the online suppliers (of email) for 100%.
So since there is a dire need that can`t be replaced by anything else, I don`t think desktop email will cease to exist.
Hector F. said on Wednesday, 08 April 2009
It may not be of the liking of everyone but there are business and agencies that need the email suite (Outlook, Evolution, Thunderbird) since most of them can control how the user manages the email inside their computer network plus if they don't provide internet to every user the email client can do the basic (send and receive text email)
Geoff said on Wednesday, 08 April 2009
The problem with add-ons for TB is that it would become as annoying as FFX with updates every time it was opened.
The problem with Gmail's web interface is that the nested 'conversation' view still doesn't make sense to me. If I fall behind a few rounds of email ping pong, it seems as though Google is hiding information from me.
A big problem with email is attachments. Files shouldn't be duplicated in email - they should be links to files in a version control system like SVN. The number of times I've found a doc in email where I couldn't be sure if I had the most recent version. (Grumbles.)
Eric said on Wednesday, 08 April 2009
Nope! I am a young person (26) and I use email just as much as I ever did. Twitter is a no-go because email is "private" whereas Twitter is for everyone to read. Facebook is also untenable for business contacts. So I have to make IBM my "friend" if I want to contact them about a job? Doesn't fly.
Gwen Baker said on Saturday, 11 April 2009
At my workplace, we have no choice in email clients. Our communications system is built around Outlook, and that decision is made far away by people we've never met. We can use any browser we like, but for internal communications MS has the vendor tie-down perfected.
Agwaja said on Saturday, 11 April 2009
XMPP/Jabber should be supported. i don't think about IM but asynchronous message exchanging (just like mail). This is a native feature of Jabber. Jabber nativelevy prevent spam and contact identity check. It's mail 2.0 !
Glyn Moody said on Saturday, 11 April 2009
@Eric: Twitter has DMs (Direct Messages) that are private if you need privacy; and if you don't like Facebook for work, there's LinkedIn. And I was suggesting these *in addition*, not instead of. But their popularity needs to be taken account of.
Glyn Moody said on Saturday, 11 April 2009
@Gwen: yes, Outlook lockin is one of the biggest problems here.
Glyn Moody said on Saturday, 11 April 2009
@Agwaja: yes, XMPP/Jabber would be an interesting avenue to explore.
Moo Cow said on Saturday, 11 April 2009
mooooo!
Crystal Groves said on Wednesday, 22 April 2009
I use thunderbird religiously to consolidate all of my email accounts. Web mail just doesn't have the organizational skills, even with gmail. I like my things organized in folders, not with tags.
James said on Friday, 22 May 2009
The problem is that webmail -- Gmail etc. -- are proprietary. Terms could change at any time. Privacy aside, there's always the fear that in ten years Google might find it is not lucrative enough. Trusting your entire email archive to a single company seems extremely foolish.
I know that a desktop client can store my emails for decades. How about webmail?
Steve said on Friday, 05 June 2009
Dude, I actually use Thunderbird (actually, Thunderbird Portable) as an email client for my gmail accounts. I have three of them, and don't want to have to log in and log out in order to check them all.
It's great. I actually found this article through an RSS feed that I get using Thunderbird.
Dennis B said on Thursday, 06 August 2009
"opt-in... you get to choose who can contact you... "
If that is the solution as to why people like those other programs... what about giving Thunderbird users the option of selecting a "filter" such that they can only receive e-mails from those people that are in their e-mail list? Is that doable?
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